Anne Smith Breaks It Down for Vienna's Downtown

Your views on Bukont are fair. His buildings may not be perfect to some, but they are to others. The big gripe toward him came while he was serving in the government. His vision of Maple would definitely be better than Maud's - by a country mile. If we could get your views on new urbanism into Vienna...everyone would love it when it was done!

Anne - Don't know that I know you, but I may - Trying to figure out your ID - I would really like to sit down and talk to you face to face - Please call me - I am in the Vienna Phone Book, or e-mail me. Your posts have been thoughtful, intelligent, progressive and insightful.

Hope to touch base soon.
Best, DB

I think too the areas of Mill and Dominion need to be looked at as well. One urban planner that I like is Andres Duany, he re-designed Old Town Naples, Florida. He could have done a lot for Vienna as well, and from what I understand was considered at one time by the Maple Ave Vision Committee. Anne I think that education is the only way to help people to understand that no one with these ideas has any interest in harming Vienna's character. These ideas would bring more charm to Vienna.
Thank you Anne!

>>Writers on this site are quite critical of Bukont's projects, but in my opinion, he addressed some tricky problems with creativity.

Imagine Church Street with a parking garage under every new building, ground floors 5 feet above street level, a maze of stairs and ramps along their fronts, and trim and siding exteriors that weather in 5-10 years. I'm not as impressed as you are, Anna.

>>they are relatively successful in drawing the kinds of new businesses many on this website want.

Anybody got a list of those? I can think of the exercise equipment business, the ice cream shop, the cell phone business, and the boutique restaurant. And the For Lease signs.

>>Further, he should not be criticized for bending the rules because it's not his job to enforce rules.

It is everyone's job to respect and abide by the rules. The me generation is fond of abdicating personal responsibility as though it's a new right of citizenship.

Town Green,
Imagine Church St the way it used to be--with the crappy cinder block garages-turned-into-stores that lined the street before Bukont came in. I'd rather see a parking garage under each building than a sea of asphalt surrounding each one. Bukont's buildings follow the letter and the spirit of the architectural guidelines that were established for Church St.

the new businesses you name are actually pretty significant, given the small amount of retail space he's built. The ice cream shop, restaurant, and wine shop are all great new additions to the town. Regarding your last point, why should he be held to a higher standard of respecting rules than those who impose the rules? If the town council gave him the go ahead, he has no further moral responsibility.

Susan,
Duany is a rock star of urban designers and there are hundreds of other talented designers who could come up with good, creative plans for Vienna. But without a town government willing to implement plans, it wouldn't matter. the plans would just sit on the shelf with all the previously commissioned plans and studies.

If when you go to the store and the clerk gives you too much change, do you give it back or keep it. Or do you get on the management team of that business to insure that the clerk making the mistake does not get fired so that you can continue to reap money from the clerks mistake.

>>Bukont's buildings follow the letter and the spirit of the architectural guidelines that were established for Church St.

Then I think those guidelines are seriously lacking.

>>the new businesses you name are actually pretty significant,

Sorry, the exercise equipment business is now gone. Didn't notice.

>>Regarding your last point, why should he be held to a higher standard of respecting rules than those who impose the rules? If the town council gave him the go ahead, he has no further moral responsibility.

I was addressing your judgement, not his actions.

I guess it's pretty hard to please all the people all the time with the new businesses. I lost Full Cry & Worthington's and gained three even more expensive stores (Dandelion Patch, Bazin's, My Sister's Closet). These aren't really the stores I'm looking for, either. But, I guess, they are in the path of the right direction. I would still like to see a national bookstore somewhere in town.

I guess I'm still missing Coffee Caboodle, Trifles & Treasures, Sage and Brambled Nest.

I am with wyltn and Town Green on this one. The assertion that the Bazin's building is better than what it replaced is the epitome of damning with faint praise. What is worse is that the building sets the tone for the ones to follow. We will never get appropriate setbacks this way. As one who regularly runs and walks through town, I am tired of having to dodge doors opening onto narrow sidewalks. The Bazin's building sends the message that we do not want people walking along Church St.; we just want to give them a way to get from their cars to the restaurant (which I like, by the way). Finally, the idea that abiding by the law means that "he has no further moral responsibility" is a point that one could debate ad nauseam, although I will resist.

Duany and the potential of Vienna is what got me charged to run twice for Council.
But you are exactly right about the Council because I can remember at one of the open Maple Ave Committee meetings one of the presenters actually said "I am not convinced you even want this." At the time I did not know what he meant, but I sure do now.

A good commercial district needs a wide variety of stores. No one will like all of them, but if the mix is varied enough, everyone will find something to make them happy. And, yes, some stores are gone--this happens in any retail environment, for lots of reasons. If the district is healthy, new stores will replace the lost ones.

Piling On,
re appropriate setbacks, traditional commercial districts dating back hundreds of years, as well as the new urbanist ones that try to recreate traditional forms do not have setbacks at all, but do have wide sidewalks. the problem here is that the sidewalks are way too narrow, not that there are no setbacks.

Anne,

Thanks for the info. and discussion. Some credit may be due for the newer bldgs. on Church as almost anything is better than some of the existing buildings (e.g. Fairfax Auto Parts), but there is room for improvement. Have you ever tried parking in that parking garage in Bazin's (nearly impossible to turn or fit anything but a moped in those spaces).

Do think that everyone should have live up to their own (hopefully high) moral standards, regardless of what the rulemakers say. Just because a rule or law exists, doesn't necessarily mean that it's right in a moral sense.

>>We will never get appropriate setbacks this way.

Indeed. What is the first improvement you see visualized repeatedly on the website http://www.urban-advantage.com? Wide sidewalks! Space for people! The Town should have NEVER let Bukont build to within 4 feet of the curb on Church Street... NEVER! Why did they? Clearly because they have no vision, they have no guidelines, and they want their favorite house builder to impart his magic on their historic strip... or in other words, they are incompetent and lazy. And a good architect would be morally bound to not so violate space, form, and function.

What is Bukont's next morality allowance... he will overbuild RM2 zoning by 100% if the {...]s on Town Council "give him the go ahead". And for this we should be thankful? First a cattle ramp on Locust Street and soon a stock yard on Berry Street... very charming!

I think that the real problem is that there is NO vision and NO plan. When the TC grants spaces to be developed then people/builders get excited to just get something/anything and will settle. This needs to change or Vienna will have no character.

>>Have you ever tried parking in that parking garage in Bazin's (nearly impossible to turn or fit anything but a moped in those spaces).

Those 'spaces' are just another cheat on the zoning code... Bukont addressing "tricky problems with creativity" and blatant disregard for space, form, and function. That building is a disaster waiting to happen... give it some time.

I can't but help feel that if a bigger developer came along, the Bukont buildings on Church Street would still be razed along with all the others. A big developer wouldn't do piecemeal - it would all get knocked down, right?

As usual, these discussions appear to be governed by designers and builders, and that small percentage of Vienna taxpayers that live within a few minutes walk of Maple Ave. Parking serves a purpose. You get rid of it, minimize it, centralize it, and you make it difficult for the people who have to drive. That includes many long time residents of Vienna. Part of the secret to success for the kind of dense development being discussed is public transportation. The 2T bus does not cut it, so it can't even be factored in. And does anyone notice the "upscale" nature of the desired businesses. Just another part of the transformation to neighborhoods full of million dollar homes. We live 10-20 minutes from Tysons. If you want to be any more upscale, try North Arlington. There's lovely Disneyfied shopping and dining and there, right on the Orange line.

Took my younger son to the new NY Style Pizza place on Church Street last night for dinner. It was simple, really good fast food. Open just a couple of weeks, this place is already popular with a demographic cross-section of Vienna residents. Marty, you've got a winner!

The ONLY issue was getting in and out of the parking lot. It occurred to me that very few of the parking lots or spaces take into account that many, many folks in Vienna drive these huge SUVs, often take up a bit more than one space, and have problems getting in and out of these lots.

Parking situations in town need to take into account size of vehicle, plus turning radius of large SUVs. It's clear that the Town has failed to consider this situation and it's reflected in horrible parking for recent projects - the Noodles & Co. complex, Bukonts Locust street condos, and now the redevelopment of Church street buildings.

C'mon Vienna Town Council! If I can see this, why can't you?

CSPAN:

And does anyone notice the "upscale" nature of the desired businesses.

Are you saying we should openly court businesses that are "lowscale" in nature? Check cashing? Fast food? Walmart?

We must accept the fact that land on Maple is very expensive at this point. Who is going to afford to buy the buildings or land (hint: deep pockets aka national chains)? Commerce bank paid $4,400,000 last May for their property. Most small locally owned businesses will not be purchasing this land or affording rents in these buildings.

We are not going back to the days of Peter Pan, Penguin Feather and Curly's any time soon no matter how much some people would like to turn back the clock. And, yes, Vienna, may price some people out of living here. We are 2 miles from Tyson's Corner and 12 miles from DC. A lot of small towns can stay exactly the same forever but Vienna's proximity to everything will force the change. Prices are never going down again. Money is here to stay.

Vienna is different. Fairfax County is different. I have two choices at this point: stay and voice an opinion in my future or leave.

I'm surprised no one has brought up public transportation before. It should be an integral part of any plan for downtown Vienna. We have a Metro station in Vienna, but basically, we can't get there from here. It's not accessible by foot or by bus for most local residents. Metro parking is expensive and disappears too early for most commuters. Why is there no bus service between Maple Avenue and the Metro? The town seems to view Metro as the ugly stepchild that we got stuck with but have no interest in. It doesn't make sense.

Actually, I think the Metro is accessible to a good portion of Vienna by foot. I don't think a 20 minute walk is a burden (for most of the year anyhow). My husband walked home last night and it is about 1.5 miles.

We did have the Jitney bus way back when and it just never worked. People around here like their cars. Perhaps, the tide has changed and a small bus line would be popular this time around.

Perhaps, that can be my line of business when I go back to work. I'll pick 15 commuters every morning in a passenger van for a ride to the Metro.

Metro is more than 3 miles to my house on the north side of Vienna. too long, and most of it is not a pleasant walk. The Jitney didn't work because it was so poorly concieved, and not well publicized. the route was too long and service too infrequent. With all the Metro buses cruising around empty, why doesn't the town government (yea, right!) work with them to configure a shuttle route that takes people where they actually want to go? To say people like their cars is just a copout. If they're taking Metro, they're open to public transit--it just doesn't go where it's needed.

Let me explain my "upscale" reference. My basic concern is this: There is pressure to change the character of Vienna from a small bedroom community of mostly middle class residents to a moderately urban link between Tysons and the new Vienna Metro developments. I've worked on the Wilson Blvd corridor in Arlington since 1992, and have seen both the good and bad of this kind of development.

If in 15 years Maple Ave and the surrounding residential properites are redeveloped in the same manner as the Courthouse/Clarendon area in Arlington has been, Vienna's economic character will center around those homes that currently sell for close to a million more than the houses they replaced. Parking will be extremely difficult - how do you draw traffic off of Maple Ave and into the restaurants when the parking is limited? We don't have the Orange Line running under Maple Ave, and that's what's necessary to support six story buildings up and down the street. As residents, do you want to see free and easy parking disappear? Do you want $10 private garages, or public metered parking (with accompanying aggressive enforcement).

Redevelopment of some parts of the commercial strip is inevitable. But take a breath, think about what's reasonable, and about both the past and future of the town. I bought my (very modest) house here because Vienna is an oasis of livablility amidst the sprawl that is Northern Virginia - I'd like to keep as much of that as possible.

I've walked to Vienna Metro a number of times - yes, on sidewalks even (via Nutley). It's about 1.5 miles for me too. It's not the nicest walk in the world, but it's doable. Is your point that Vienna should have planned and developed around that Metro better or that more public transport is needed?

I've taken both a Cue Bus and Metro Bus from the Vienna Metro station - it drops you right on 123 at McDonalds or the Village Green Center. Not sure of the routes beyond that, but do see them running up and down Maple Ave. - so can we justify the cost/need of a Vienna bus line? Do we need a bus to take you from the Commerce bank to the Town Green?

Maybe we can run the above-ground Tyson's Metro rail to the Vienna Metro and the whole town can be bypassed...isn't that what's really happening anyway?

EVS
my point is BOTH! Vienna should have planned for Vienna Metro to be high density transit-oriented development. instead they fought like crazy & ended up with a "compromise" sea of townhouses. It's not a real neighborhood and it doesn't use such valuable land appropriately. The town assumed that they could stop change but instead they got bad change.

Given that Metro is where it is, we need some kind of linkage to connect it to the center of Vienna. I'm not suggesting that bus service is needed all along Maple Ave, but a single drop-off or maybe two, somewhere in the center of town with the other end at Vienna Metro might be a good use of resources.

Maybe we can run the above-ground Tyson's Metro rail to the Vienna Metro and the whole town can be bypassed...isn't that what's really happening anyway?

Would this be a bad thing to cut out thousands of pass-through commuters? Seriously?

We'll still have plenty of people coming to town for their shopping/dining but just less cut-through.

I wonder about that "pass through commuter traffic" that's always talked about. I wonder if it's another of the town council's mantras that has no basis. Think about it. Maple Ave is so congested that I avoid it at all cost. Most people do. So why would commuters choose to use Maple? Seems to me that workers from Tysons Corner would likely use 66 to get anywhere other than maybe Oakton. Also, the traffic is actually worse on Saturday afternoons than during rush hour. To me this implies that the traffic on Maple is there because that's where they're going. Anyone seen any studies on this?

Anne just look at the tags going through-the majority are not Vienna stickers. The morning and afternoon rush hours are abysmal.

Crossing town three mornings a week at 9am to take kids to preschool, my observation is that all the single occupant vehicles are just traveling to work (Tyson's, McLean, etc).

Anyone who lives in town, would know better than to sit in traffic all the way through Vienna - there are some ways around it. It is usually backed up going North starting at Nutley Street.

Public transportation around Vienna - from where I live in SW you can take the 2T bus (Dunn Loring/Tysons loop). Tried this for a year, and it was a frustrating disaster. The schedule, as one would expect considering that it goes to Tysons, was wildly unreliable. I gave up on a winter night when the bus was an hour late and the driver was rude to boot. Back in my car unless it's nice and I can walk 1/2 hour to the Metro. I cringe when I hear talk of additional buses to shuttle people down Maple Ave and around town. It's a money losing venture by nature, and without heavy ridership, a bus fouls more traffic than it fixes. They really exist mostly for people who have no other choice - to those people , my sympathy.

The Tysons Orange Line won't fix the Maple Ave traffic problem either, folks. That traffic is coming from the South and West of town, and will probably get worse as Tyson's expands with the new Metro line.