Traffic in Vienna: Welcome to 85 Year Old La La Land

It is a full blown battle in Vienna. Many older residents. Here forever. Many less affluent. If they were educated when they were younger, they clearly have lost it now. On the other side, younger residents willing to solve problems. Not burying their head in the sand. They have more cash. Is there room for negotiation between the groups? Sure, but let's face it, the old folks are selfish. They want power. Whether their use of that power sets Vienna back, they don't give a hoot. In the long run their way of thinking loses, but at what price in the short term?

The problem is that enough younger voters who complain about the traffic do NOT VOTE. They do not seem to put 2 and 2 together: traffic and Town Council are connected.

They do not realize that the following could be fixed TODAY with new leadership:

• Church Street could be opened
• Lawyers/Church intersection could be fixed
• A stop light at Pleasant Street or Lewis
• Bridge over Maple for bikers/walkers

And, do not forget, Beulah Road crumbled under 50 years of Maud & Charlie's watch.

vienna mommy wrote:

The problem is that enough younger voters who complain about the traffic do NOT VOTE. They do not seem to put 2 and 2 together: traffic and Town Council are connected.

They do not realize that the following could be fixed TODAY with new leadership:

• Church Street could be opened
• Lawyers/Church intersection could be fixed
• A stop light at Pleasant Street or Lewis
• Bridge over Maple for bikers/walkers

To which I say:

Church Street is not closed to the best of my knowledge. Please clarify.

A stop light somewhere midpoint between Lawyers and Nutley would be helpful to pedestrians while drivers would whine and cry about it, making claims that it would just slow and bog down vehicular traffic even more.

A bridge over Maple at a single point would do almost nothing to help most walkers or bikers. Bikers and walkers already have a controlled crossing point at the bike trail, though they may have to wait a moment for the light to cycle. Many bridges would be great, but who will agree to pay the millions upon millions that would cost?

Vienna is just in a bad location as far as vehicular traffic is concerned. Tyson's is a magnet, and is going to get even bigger, creating much more vehicular traffic both to and through Vienna.

Vienna has become one big "feeding trough" for office workers in and around the Tyson's area. They jump into their cars at lunch time and head to Vienna to eat, clogging Maple Ave. as much as during rush hours, albeit for a shorter period of time.

I can see no solution to the traffic problems in terms of sheer vehicular volume within Vienna on Maple Ave. More business and/or residential development in Vienna will mean more cars and more traffic, not less.

Something akin to the manner in which Ballston or Clarendon or Bethesda have been developed cannot work in Vienna. Vienna has no Metro service into the town core.

Forget about the Vienna Metro in terms of providing transport for folks who want to get to downtown Vienna. Most people these days will usually not walk a single block to get anywhere if they have a car at their disposal.

I regularly see folks who work in Vienna get into their car to drive right across the street to go to the bank or get something to eat.

Does it usually take them longer to drive across the street than it would to walk? Probably. Is it less dangerous than walking across the street? Probably.

If you, or anyone else for that matter, has a truly viable solution for dealing with the volume of traffic that moves through Vienna, everyone would love to have you share it. Until then, maybe the hated Maud is right if she opines that she sees no real overall solution to the problem.

Reopening all the privatized streets, including Church St, would certainly be a step in the right direction. And a ped/bike bridge over Maple would improve traffic flow AND safety. How about the Dave Marsden Memorial Bridge?

Steve your comments are well taken but do you realize that Vienna has no metro service in Town because all attempts to extend it was rebuffed by the Town Officials. Also, are you aware that the opening of Abbotsford was abandoned because the town wanted that thru traffic for business purposes. The Town Officials actually took actions to insure that it could never be built. (Don't bet on it, see Leesburg below.) Steve, are you aware that at this moment Leesburg is constructing a 35 Million dollar bypass between Rt.7 and the Greenway. I believe it is 7/10ths of a mile.

Don't be smarky - you know Church Street is not open fully as it can be. You are just following the party line: there is no solution so just stop your bitchin'.

"A bridge over Maple at a single point would do almost nothing to help most walkers or bikers. Bikers and walkers already have a controlled crossing point at the bike trail, though they may have to wait a moment for the light to cycle. Many bridges would be great, but who will agree to pay the millions upon millions that would cost?"

A typical Saturday will see hundreds and hundreds of people on the W&OD Trail crossing Maple Ave. That is a lot of people who will be helped by a bridge, not to mention the motorists.

The Town Green cost far more than a bridge would (and most of its activities could be held just as well at Glyndon or Nottaway). A bridge is a much better deal. If Town Council wants a bridge to be built, a bridge will be built.

"Also, are you aware that the opening of Abbotsford was abandoned because the town wanted that thru traffic for business purposes."

Abbotsford would have been an ideal bypass. The road is wide, with a large median. Instead, we funnel everything onto Church and Maple. This all makes sense when you realize that the small town we are trying to emulate is Breezewood, PA.

How and why did Vienna become Seinfeld's Del Boca Vista? Brehony and Stich would have been better off giving out "early bird dinner coupons" than spending money on political marketing.

Where though were these young people on election day? They were too busy sipping their apathetic latte driving their mini-van to school. And some of the young ones who did vote are being very well groomed to take the reigns of power. Many are on committees now.

I was going down Lawyers this morning at around 8am. Traffic was backed up past West. I naturally sat through several light cycles. By the time I was up there the majority of cars were going straight. I wanted to make a right onto 123 and could have if I were able to go down Church Street. As it was I saw many cars cut through the shopping centers. Why is it like that? It goes against the grain of common sense to have that closed.

Steve Rigby wrote:

Blah Blah Blah

To which I say:

Stop promoting unconstitutional TOV policies from my place of business. Not smart.

Steve Rigby's right... it's doubtful that any of these ideas being tossed around will do anything for traffic. A bridge over 123 might be better for the trail riders, but there's still a stop light at both Center and Park streets so I don't see it makes any difference to the cars... and Lawyers road is packed from all the cars coming through from out of town to get on 123. I don't see how anything on Church street will make any difference.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, you can drive around in Alexandria, Arlington, Falls Church, Reston, and Herndon and you see the same kind of traffic... if you don't like it, you'll probably have to move out of Northern Virginia!

And no, I'm not old... I'm a

yes, the traffic on maple will always be bad, but it could be improved. better timing of the lights, no left turns from driveways, opening existing closed streets to provide alternatives would all cost next to nothing and would make some difference. also, who's brilliant idea was it to close both Beulah and Branch roads for construction at the same time?

Posted by Abbotsford Bypass Patient:

Steve your comments are well taken but do you realize that Vienna has no metro service in Town because all attempts to extend it was rebuffed by the Town Officials. Also, are you aware that the opening of Abbotsford was abandoned because the town wanted that thru traffic for business purposes.

I respond:

How could the train line have been simply "extended" into Vienna? It runs in the middle of 66, not directly toward the town itself. Any extension of the line would have to continue down 66 further westward. A spur would have to serve to bring the rail directly into the town, and Metro simply has no spur lines anywhere, and they were never even contemplated from the outset.

All town governments everywhere usually do all they can to steer vehicular traffic to the business core. They even arrange for traffic signals to slow traffic in order to increase the visibility of local businesses to passing traffic. These are staus quo tactics all over the place. It would appear as though the Ms. Damon's, the Ms. Robinson's and Ms. Seeman's are ubiquitous, everywhere all at once.

"A bridge over 123 might be better for the trail riders, but there's still a stop light at both Center and Park streets so I don't see it makes any difference to the cars... and Lawyers road is packed from all the cars coming through from out of town to get on 123. I don't see how anything on Church street will make any difference."

Adding stop lights slows traffic no matter how well you synchronize the lights. You need to understand that the impact of traffic flow is inherently nonlinear. A 10% increase in volume has little effect on travel time when volume is low, but it may have an enormous effect when volume is high. Suppose, for sake of argument, that Church Street were open west of Lawyers. Also suppose that just one car per cycle made that right turn. Finally, suppose that the traffic flow is such that all waiting cars on Lawyers just get through in one cycle. Now prohibit right turns at Church. On the first cycle, there is one car that does not get through since the car that would have turned right stayed on Lawyers. On the second cycle, two do not get through, etc. Within an hour, perhaps 15 are not getting through per cycle. The line would get longer and longer. The point is that small changes can add up and have dramatic effects.

Gridlock is right. Traffic delays are like compounding interest. The more you've got, the more you get.

Fredrick, Md.
Gettysburg, Pa.
Had you ever visited those towns before they put in a bypass? You don't believe metro could have been in closer proximity to downtown but you probably believe that those persons advocating tunneling of Maple Ave are rational. Don't trust my information, just get the facts and come back and educate me and more importantly the non-voters of Vienna.

traditionally, towns form around a transportation hub. Vienna is where it is because it was a train stop. Rationally, when the train disappeared and Metro came in, the center of town should have gravitated to the area around the metro stop. this actually would have happened naturally if the market had been allowed to operate because commercial property wants to be near the best transportation facilities--Metro & I-66. But instead, the town leaders fought high density and commercial development around the Metro station, ending up instead with a compromise in which everyone loses.

Abbotsford Bypass Patient says:

You don't believe metro could have been in closer proximity to downtown but you probably believe that those persons advocating tunneling of Maple Ave are rational.

I respond with:

I said that it would have required a rail spur to get the train to the downtown environs of Vienna. The only acceptable path for Metrorail to follow after a lot of wrangling with the suburban communities was along 66.

Discussions of a tunnel beneath Maple Ave. and through Vienna are laughable in my humble opinion. Yet again, an assumption was being made about my views.

Steve you say that metro would have needed a rail spur to get to the environs of downtown Vienna. Now is that a fact or a presumption? Note: I request that you get the facts before advising further. Otherwise it is BS. Working off the top of my head I cannot recall all the details but I do know that in all matters of progress whether in town or out of town, the Council is negative.

Abbotsfor Bypass Patient:

Otherwise it is BS.
+++

To date, nothing that I have posted on this entire site has been regarded as anything but bull shit by readers such as yourself, even when I have stated facts that have not been refuted by anyone here.

I will not waste my time asceding to your request for the above reason. FWIW, the Metrorail history area of the WMATA site is no longer avialable, wherein would be the info you were seeking.

Take my word for it. The only route into the VA suburbs for Metro at the time of its inception was to follow 66 beyond Arlington. That was because no VA locality beyond Arlington, where it is underground, wanted a rail line to slice through their community, effectively bisecting it, because any such line would have had to have been built above ground.

Witness the current debate about rail to Tyson's. If you think that debate is heated, then you clearly do not remember or never knew anything about the furors about how to route Metro through Arlington and beyond.

Of course, all the above is bull shit.

Rigby is right about Metro. when it was being planned, most Virginia jurisdictions didn't really understand or want Metro & decided to put it where it do the least "harm". only Arlington understood the positive impact that Metro could bring & decided to plan for density around each station. It transformed Arlington to a more livable, more prosperous place. And because of well-planned commercial growth along Metro corridors, Arlington's tax base is heavily reliant on its businesses, which eases the burden for residents.

*Yawn*

A discussion of a 40 year-old debate about the expansion of the Metro system is really going nowhere for me. I don't care who is right or wrong.

It's 2007 and Vienna needs to address today's concerns - there are plenty and there are solutions. TC won't even enact the simplest of changes, even for a test run, to see how it goes.

My first proposal: open Church Street to two-way traffic.

anne smith:

Rigby is right about Metro

Thanks for the confirmation on my statement about Metro. However, you need to know that all I do is spew misinformation, so please disregard any of my comments or statements.

vienna mommy,
I'm for opening all public streets to the public. the question is how can the public force the town council to serve the public good rather than the interests of the few?

The only way Vienna can ever expect to "fix" its cut through traffic is:

1. I-66 needs to be increased from the 4 lanes it is now to 6 or 8 outside the beltway with better outflow lanes (look at the Springfield interchange "mixing bowl" it actually works), Dedicated lanes need to be designed to get the traffic moving faster from Route 123 to places away from the I-66/R-495 interchange.

and

2. I-66 inside the beltway needs to be increased to a minimum of 6-8 lanes all the way into DC.

3. The metro should be extended all the way onto Warrenton with stops at the appropriate places, to include Manassas, Gainesville, Warrenton, and stops in between. Extra traffic from places north, such as Reston, Great Falls, and Leesburg, could be helped by projecting the Metro through Leesburg, to Winchester, and places in between. This worked in San Diego, CA. and the traffic flow studies show that it should work here, too.

To help reduce the extra loading during rush hour (which is really like "rush morning" and "rush evening") a new route needs to be made that allows for a I-95 bypass that exits I-95 below Woodbridge and travels east over a new bridge over the Potomac River, and travels through Maryland and rejoins I-95 North near Columbia Maryland. This will take a large portion of traffic off the beltway to help with the surge during rush hour traffic. A increase in traffic flow could be helped with a larger and wider highway and bridge system near Lovettsville, VA will be key also. This worked to help the traffic around Richmond, VA.

Will this happen? Politicians need to speak with authority and gravitas and make their case. Progress is never going to please everyone. Yes there will be more requisite expensive studies, lawyers, and politicians careers will be on the line, but in the long run, it is the right thing to do.

In the meantime, all residents in Vienna should be allowed to have effective means that restrict excessive cut-through traffic afforded to all its neighborhood streets, and not to those just along the country club and the SE Vienna quadrant.

A Town Council that is responsive to all its citizens should be the rule, sadly, this is not the case now. The TC, as it stands presently, is perhaps the most derisive and unproductive council this town has witnessed for generations.

Just look at what happened to Ed Adamson this week. According to the plans of removing only 8 trees from the entire length of the Beulah Road project, Mr. Adamson was surprised to find out that someone had cut down all 8 of his trees in front of his lot, and he was told by VDOT and the TOV that this was not going to happen, but it did. What really happened here? Last night at the TC meeting, Mayor Seeman appeared flustered when she tried to explain why the TC had for years ignored any effective cooperation with VDOT, and she was not sure if this head in the sand attitude had anything to do with the loss of Mr. Adamson's entire front yard of trees.

There is a story here, but it should be investigated, not ignored. It would be nice to have a TC in your corner to help and protect all its citizens, and not just those close friends who happen to be of like mind and brotherhood.

Today, after dropping the kids off at camp, I was attempting to visit the ABC store at 9:30am. Not open that earlier (hmmph!), so I drove home back down Church. I noticed the street was backed up all the way to the Post Office. I started counting cars & TOV stickers. Approximately 40 cars and THREE town stickers.

I'm satisfied to now state that 7.5% of the cars who drive through Vienna during the morning rush hour are actually town residents. Let's open that Abbotsford Bypass. We need to do something now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder how deep Brian Trompeter will dig on this one... or does he need a push? Or will as per usual, just ignore the nasty side of Town officials.

Could Mr. Adamson's trees have been cut down because Mr. Adamson was the past President of NEVCA and was a strong advocate for the people he represented, which by the way, was a position that the Vienna Town Council had disdain for.

From what I have learned, Mr. Ed Adamson was a understanding person, who had no ill feelings with the Town of Vienna, but he also understood the position he was in being the President of NEVCA. It has also been learned that his wife, who was a volunteer member of the Ayrl Hill Garden Club, was all but forcibly removed from their inner circle when Mr. Ed Adamson was fighting the Town of Vienna over issues that were very important to a NEVCA group of homeowners. So, is it just a coinsidence that only his trees were cut down?

Was this a spiteful act from the current lot of characters, who have never shied away from showing their disdain and scorn for the NEVCA families?

Nice way to run a Town, Jane. This commenter may not be able to prove you or some other Town Council member had any hand in this mess, but the fact remains, you did nothing to stop it. I hope that a reporter with the time and resources, and motivation to dig deeper into your deelings will be able to shed more light.

Haha, vienna mommy's post got me laughing. My wife will attest to the sticker counting. First thing I ALWAYS look at when I can't get out onto Park Street off my street, or when I'm in one of the dreaded Saturday Maple Avenue traffic-fests. My impression of me, "County ... County ... County ... County ... You're okay ... County ... County ... You're okay ... County ... County ...."

Seriously, my wife thinks it's nuts. But something about seeing a county sticker drives me batty.

That's all I've got on that. I'm no civil engineer. Apart from moving further west, I don't know what to do about it. I just think that cities are like viruses, invading and consuming everything around them. Haymarket is a sleepy little area right now, but in a few decades, it'll be jammed up just like Vienna.

Yes, I know it sounds defeatist. I've read that criticism here before, so no need to call me that name -- I'll take the mantle willingly, if it will avoid a fight.

Although I agree that the Metro should be expanded West and North West, there is one basic problem that is always glossed over: the Rosslyn Bottleneck - there are only two tracks under the river.

For an expansion to work (i.e. be rideable) you will need more thoughput inside the beltway. The people out in Loudoun and Fauquier counties and not going to trade their cars for a ride standing up with their nose in someone's armpit.

Secondly, 6-8 lanes of 66 inside the beltway isn't going to happen unless VDOT exercises eminent domain and expands the cut through Arlington County (and we know that will NEVER happen.) Just look at how narrow the current cut gets at Sycamore St. That is because Arlington fought tooth and nail over 66. It was supposed to be completed in the early 70s and instead wasn't finished until the mid to late 80s. Why? Because the NIMBYs in Arlington kept it in litigation from the mid 60s until the late 70s. What is there now is a compromise that won't be undone.

"Haymarket is a sleepy little area right now"

Hah!

I've been neutral on your posts so far, but I guess you haven't tried to get on 29 or 15 headed south recently. There is no time during daylight hours that it takes less than 25 minutes ( and I mean from 29 in Gainesville, not 66 ) to get from Gainesville to where 15 and 29 connect back up down towards Vint Hill Rd. (it used to take about 5 unless there was a train at the crossing.) If you move out there you had better have a home-based business, because you certainly don't want to try to drive anywhere.

...and oh yeah, I can't resist this: who here remembers where I-66 was originally supposed to cross the Potomac?

OK, my bad ... I haven't been there in years -- I used to go scuba dive a quarry out that way (off an access road that runs parallel to 66), and I also used to do bike (motorcycle) rides out that way as well -- not so much since my son was born in 2003, though. I go almost exclusively east (to DC) and back. But if Haymarket is a clusterf- right now, that's sort of the point I was making, I think.

Also, no, I haven't been on 29 south since, I think, the fall of 2004 or maybe '05, so I'm pretty much shooting in the dark as to what it's like.

Like I said, though, it's like a virus, and I guess it's spread more than I thought.

"...and oh yeah, I can't resist this: who here remembers where I-66 was originally supposed to cross the Potomac?"

Highlander, I wonder whether you are referring to the ill-fated I266, which would have branched off I66, followed Spout Run, and then crossed the Potomac at the Three Sisters Bridge. It would have then joined Whitehurst, obviating the need for the ramp from Key Bridge.

Old-timer gets the prize.