Gerrymandering the Historic District: A Primer

The properties in blue are currently in the Windover Heights Historic District. It's worth noting that people like Frank Lillis led the fight for those silly boundaries - lines drawn on racial lines with no connection to any documented history. Where did they get the boundaries? A bunch of attorneys pulled those from thin air.

It wasn't easy, but some Googling revealed that the donut hole property is owned by "Vamos Development, LLC." Judging from the values and recent sale prices on the Fairfax county tax page, they paid well above the assessed value to obtain it. Looks like more real estate speculators are at work. Anyone know who's behind "Vamos Development, LLC"???

Nice try at scaring old people on fixed incomes, but $450,000 for 17,000 sq ft of land in Vienna, sitting directly across the street from a new (and Maud sanctioned) $10 million dollar house, was a great price. When Maud allows a $10 million dollar 15,000 sq ft house to be built, only a dummy would not try and buy the property across the street! I do find the class warfare politics, along with open corruption and hypocrisy among Maud and her supporters, an interesting mix. Anyone who would write that 450k is a high price (considering it is a low price for a buildable lot in Vienna), can't afford it. And when did speculators become bad? Aren't they the ones who were prodded to come in and raze more than 50% of the historic district? Look at the map! The map shows Jane and Maud's historic district is all about real estate speculation.

We had to hold the racial line.

We had to hold the racial line.

Sherlock:

Developers looking to make MILLIONS were probably behind these sales, too:

311 WINDOVER: sold for 500k in 2003 and assessed at $359,785.

315 WINDOVER: sold for 575k in 2004 and assessed at $307,145 in 2003.

My favorite: Tom Stevens bought 316 WINDOVER for $1,300,000 in August of 2001. It was assessed at $440,335.

Your post was a nice attempt at a "a-ha" moment. But the real issue at play is that people pay a premium for the location. People who do not follow real estate may not quite grasp there is a premium put on the land in NW - the price to be on the Hill.

In the next 10 years at least 50% more of those red dots will be torn down in the name of historic preservation. But when it comes to speculation Vienna's corrupt blueberry is the Town's premier speculator.

I wonder if our poster 'Vamos' can explain the donut hole, that is the real topic after we get past the real estate value misdirection ploy.

The "donut hole" is like The Who song, Squeeze Box:

"goes in and out and in and out and in and out and in and out"

Will 129 Pleasant be in the Historic District this year and then back out again? How about 125? Where will it be tomorrow?

I brought up the sales price vs assessment because you guys thought it was a big deal that the Posh store got sold for more than its assessed value. 'Susan' posted "I think it is important to find out who Vienna Dominion Properties is/are-why would they buy a lot MORE in Vienna knowing the small minded thinking of this Town, especially since other investors are leaving tired of the deathwatch of this current TC."

So your position is that Susan's question is legitimate to ask regarding Vienna Dominion Properties, but not Vamos Development? Why is that? Doesn't it bother you that single family homes in Vienna are getting scooped up by faceless development corporations who hide the details of their ownership and plans?

So your position is that Susan's question is legitimate to ask regarding Vienna Dominion Properties, but not Vamos Development? Why is that? Doesn't it bother you that single family homes in Vienna are getting scooped up by faceless development corporations who hide the details of their ownership and plans?

The point of Posh article was the idiotic zoning code in the Town along with the Mayor's lack of responsiveness along with the Mayor and Maud's current secret negotiations to make that general area of Vienna (near Vienna Inn) some sort of central focal point in Vienna - a desire that will not happen due to a lack of land. It's Garden Club planning, not professional by any stretch. Got it? Did Jane promise the new buyers of Posh something not promised to others? That's the point.

On to your next senior moment...Single family homes are being scooped up faceless development corporations? Huh? Who are you, some hippie in a wool loin cloth? Vienna is being TORN down! Have you been paying attention? Faceless or not, whether you have lived in the same house for 25 years or not, the old houses are all going. You can't stop it and clearly there is a demand for it that far exceeds your namby pamby fear mongering. So what do you want the good ole days of every house in Vienna looking like a 1-story Yeonas developed Cottage street home? Change is here baby. Just like the Yeonas family blew down everything they could in Vienna in the 50s to build, now those homes are being torn down. Can't stop it.

So "Vamos" back to the donut hole, have you tired of the misdirection? Can you explain the hole?

...faceless development corporations who hide the details of their ownership and plans?

Speaking of hiding PLANS, would you mind telling us how much money you have and your PLANS for getting more? Perhaps post your brokerage statements and PLANS for the future? You are a jealous twit. I know this line of reasoning probably feels natural in your political world, but it is transparent class warfare. It speaks to your general lack of resources and unhappy lot in life. Here's a hint? Get off your butt and work harder and stop coveting your neighbors and their PLANS.

If I buy a property for 600k and it's assessed at 400k, I can build a new single family home, sell it for a sum & make a profit.

You'd be hard pressed to buy the Posh building for 3M, tear down & rebuild & then lease to tenants for profit. There is no wise decision there unless the owners know something from the town that we do not. Or have been promised something others may not be privy to.

As usual, insults and accusations but no information. I think my plan to get piles of money is going to be authoring a book called "Conversations with a Poo Flinging Monkey." Can you guess what your part in the book is going to be?

As usual, insults and accusations but no information. I think my plan to get piles of money is going to be authoring a book called "Conversations with a Poo Flinging Monkey." Can you guess what your part in the book is going to be?

You won't talk about the "hole" because you are either Jane, one of her sycophant kids, Maud or some blind follower of theirs. Once again, why the historic district hole? Or should we assume it doesn't matter that there is a hole because Jane and Maud are protecting everyone from the evil speculators out to ruin Vienna? Loser and loser logic.

I started out thinking that your issue was that some scoundrel had schemed to get his speculative real estate purchase removed from the historic district. It appears now that you are the owner of the property you're complaining about. I have no idea why your property isn't part of the historic district. Why don't you tell us?

And what's the address of the $10M house you say is across the street from your hole? I can't find any properties near 129 Pleasant Street that are worth anywhere near $10M on the county tax page.

I work with hist. dist. across the country and live in the largest national historic district in the USA. We are the "Near Westside Neighborhooid" All these problems are universal. Give us a look at:

www.historicnearwestside.com

From the Westside website:

Our historic district boost over 450 nationally registered homes with in twenty square blocks!

Vienna has ZERO. It's not a universal problem. Apparently you have documented history, preserved home, and rules, Vienna has nothing of the sort.

I started out thinking that your issue was that some scoundrel had schemed to get his speculative real estate purchase removed from the historic district. It appears now that you are the owner of the property you're complaining about. I have no idea why your property isn't part of the historic district. Why don't you tell us? And what's the address of the $10M house you say is across the street from your hole? I can't find any properties near 129 Pleasant Street that are worth anywhere near $10M on the county tax page.

The point of the post is for a Maudite (or the Maud herself) to explain the hole. We know why it is there, we would like to see you explain it.

$10M house? Maybe if you got off your couch and stopped your fascination with assessed value, which is of course not market value, and drove by 316 Windover you would see the house in question. Put that house, the largest in Vienna, on sale for the assessed value of $2,618,380 and line to buy it would extend for miles. The assessed value is unnaturally low as the owner was smart enough to leave a few boards standing allowing him to call it a remodel and not a new house. The only people that were fooled that this was not a brand new house were the County assessors.

So are you really this obtuse or do you just like to take the other side even if there is no way to defend the other side?

The suggestion is that the donut hole property was excluded from the Historic District because of its black ownership. Whatever the reason, the exclusion included the neighboring property which has since been purchased and redeveloped by Chuck Anderson and was recently added to the Historic District at his request, thus creating the donut hole. If the original exclusion was for racial reasons, it was then not as blatant as it might now seem, since there was no 5-sided donut hole then. The donut hole was not formed until Anderson donated his property rights to the jurisdiction of the Historic District.

The follow-up question is, were the owners of the two properties black when the District was formed? Given the insinuation of racism, I'd guess 'yes' for the donut hole property... but maybe not for Anderson's property? But even if so, today's donut hole does not prove racism yesterday since the two properties may have been insignificant in the eyes of the Historic District founders, or the founders may not have been anxious to impose special District constraints on those economically disadvantaged property owners.

Why were the other properties next to Anderson's excluded? Was that racism, too? Racism or not, the only relevance of today's donut hole is that the party to the Historic District lawsuit probably owns it.

Hasn't the Windover Heights Historic District Group and the TC been spouting that the district makes no claim about historicity, but is one of boundaries only and is in fact, an overlay district?

That being the case, it seems pretty simple to me that to exclude a piece of this boundary puts a major hole in their argument that they have any right or justification to preserve their district, simple because the whole argument to protect a boundary that is not a valid boundary (for whatever reason) is like saying you are partly pregnant. You are either pregnant or your are not.

You either protect a complete boundary or you don't.

This donut hole is proof that there is no validity in any preservation, no boundary preservation, no logic or legal foundation to do anything but allow the TC and their cronies to exert their will and abusive influence over decisions that have no reason being decided by our government. Simply an abuse of power and a true and clear violation of our property rights not to forget the constitutional issues that are important, too.

At this point,we have the likes of the Garden Club, with Maud at the helm, and her entourage: Sarah Jane Brady, Michael Cheselka, Daniel Dellinger, Mildred Monahan, Rose Mulville, Sandra Stadelman, Daphne Sloan, Paul Snodgrass, Katherine Tugendhat.

Amazing group of characters, aren't they?

IS it any wonder why Dellinger was the next appointed TC member?

The donut hole was not excluded due to racism.

The racism comes from the other side of the District, that's where the white/black line was drawn on Orchard Street and West Street.

The house that is the donut hole speaks to the bigger picture nonsense that is the historic district: how the lines have been drawn and redrawn for petty political reasons that only the Vienna TC knows. The fact that there is a property in the middle of a historic district, while not in the historic district, is absurd. That's the whole point here. None of this is about history. This is about a corrupt and stubborn old lady who plays games with political power, pretending all along she doesn't. The facts, not our words, say otherwise.

The house that is the donut hole speaks to the bigger picture nonsense that is the historic district: how the lines have been drawn and redrawn for petty political reasons that only the Vienna TC knows.

OK, but I think your premise is stronger when you highlight non-historic properties included in the Historic District, like the Anderson house, rather than non-historic properties excluded from the Historic District. Given racism is not your point, then I see no problem with a donut hole in a historic district if the subject property is of no historical significance. Why should a historic district be void of any particular boundary geometry? Granted, the donut hole is peculiar but it does not serve your purpose here. By focusing attention on the donut hole (and yourself), you are losing sight of the donut!

There are no historic properties in the Vienna historic district. There is a method to documenting historic properties and Vienna never did it. Just saying something is historic doesn't make it so.

In this boondoggle of historic nonsense, racism is indeed a point, and has happened. It's just not related to the donut hole as far as we know.

The donut hole was in the Historic District from 79 to 91 and removed in 91 for no reason...even though the same house still stands there today. Anderson's property was in the HD from 79 to 91...removed in 91 and added back in 98 for no reason. None of this has anything to do with historic anything or preservation. Recall Town Attorney John Gionfriddo's words:

The age of the structure has no bearing on whether or not it should be included in the district. Your attention is invited to Section 18-280.2 of the Town's zoning ordinance concerning the boundaries of the Windover Heights Historic district. You will note that it is a historic district created by boundary and makes no reference to the age or character of the structures within the boundary. I have always maintained that if Abraham Lincoln had been assassinated at the local Giant, that structure would be historic. One the other hand, the mayor's antique chicken house is very old, but in my mind has no historic value."

So why is there a historic district in Vienna? Why is there a so-called historic review board with NO established decision-making rules or design rules telling people what they can do or not do with their homes and properties?

Anyone know?

If I am not mistaken the donut hole property was originally in the Historic District and asked to be removed. This was then granted to this property.

MMMMM...DONUTS....

Pritikin said that anything that causes as much trouble as religion can't be good. I have a similar feeling about the historic district of Vienna. It is unnecessary. This town has zoning laws that should apply to all town citizens. Why should anyone be burdened with uncalled for interference with their property rights.

If no preservation is taking place, it sure seems silly to me.

As time goes by, I can see that the real reason this charade has been allowed to go on for so long, is simply due to the fact that Maud has dug her heals into the dirt and made this issue her line in the sand. Sure she knows that she has no right to waste our tax dollars on defending what has become a haven for nepotism and arbitrary and capricious deal making when it comes to people living in their district and the decisions on who they want to exclude from their district, but in the end, it's more simple than that.

Maud is stubborn. She has made her position, and to back down and admit she is wrong, simply is not in her. This is a fight that she cares little about people's lives or liberty, rather it simply is about her saving face. She has her line in the sand, and like most bullies, she refuses to let go, and will go kicking and screaming regardless of how unreasonable she appears to be in the end.

Just look at the dead trees on the Town Brown... she doesn't give a hoot about what makes a town brown green or brown, she just made her line in the sand about that, and to hell with everything else.

She's all about lines and nothing about substance. Oh, sure, she'll tell you she's preserving Vienna's small town charm... Really? How?

Prove it. Just look at the several multi-million dollar purchases over the last several months. Look at the fact that more and more of the small shops are leaving Vienna because they cannot afford to pay. Look at the fact that more homes are being torn down and bigger and more expensive homes and mansions are replacing them... etc.

What has she done to stop this? Nothing.

Nothing but a bunch of words in TC spouting that she is keeping Vienna small and family oriented.

Well, folks, she's telling you big fat lie. She knows full well that the Berry street properties will be developed. She knows that Vienna will be developed. Follow the money trail. Just look. Vienna is moving, regardless of what comes out of Maud's mouth.

What she should have done but refused to do was to rely on and participate with the Maple Avenue Vision Development Plan, and adopt new ways to control the growth in Vienna, without having to always result in court cases and lawsuits, and enemy-making which has the end result of making Vienna divided and fractured.

A fine way to run a town. She really still thinks she can run this town like her dead husband, where back room deals and lawlessness abounded. She refuses to work and grow in a mature manner totally ignoring the fact that there is controlled growth going on all around Northern Virginia, and for all she's concerned is that her line in the sand has been drawn, nobody has crossed it, and she still gets elected. This head in the sand attitude will eventually implode, when people realize she's not helping, but hurting Vienna.

Why else did she have her ilk go as far as to impede the last elections, going as far as to plant her cronies in the election room and force people not to vote for the challengers?

That in my book is despicable, and deserving of shame and ridicule, not honor and glory.

If that is what keeps her in power, than it is a sad day for Vienna. This country was not founded on behavior such as this to keep people in powe, and the fact that she revels in the fact that she was re-elected in the face of dishonor and scandalous activity, makes me think that she truly enjoys the power more than the trust of the people, and that makes me sick.

Vienna's future is much more important than one old ladie's line in the sand attitude, and should be one of forward thinking and honesty, without having to threaten people in order to get votes.

If I heard it once, and I did hear it many times, people came up to Maud during the last election and thanked her for her support of their variances and back room dealings in what anyone would call, you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours deal-making.

If you think that's fair, you are part of the problem. arbitrary and capricious, and doling out favors when it comes to peoples lives and property is not a virtuous way to run a government, and it's about time Vienna wakes up and pulls its head out of the sand before its too late.

Because if we let go of the tiger, we'll never get a hold of it again.

ADAM, YOU ARE CORRECT THAT VIENNA PRESENTLY HAS ZERO HISTORIC SITES ON ANY STATE OR NATIONAL REGESTER. UP UNTIL A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO VIENNA HAD ONE SITE ON THE NATIONAL REGISTER, NAMELY, THE MOOREFIELD PROPERTY WHICH WAS TAKEN DOWN, PARTIALLY STORED AND REMOVED FROM THE SITE AND THE NATIONAL REGISTER. THE PROPERTY WAS A "GIFT" FROM TIL HAZEL WHO IS STILL LAUGHING HIS BUTT OFF ABOUT THEIR ACCEPTANCE OF IT. OF COURSE, THE TC AND THE LOCAL VOCAL HISTORIANS WOULDN'T SPEND TOWN OR THEIR OWN FUNDS ON IT, BUT PREFERRED TO HARASS THE PROPERTY OWNERS OF THE PHONY WINDOVER HEIGHTS "HISTORIC" DISTRICT WITH THEIR NO GUIDELINES ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMITTEE. A MORE RECENT HARASSMENT WAS APPARENTLY DREAMED UP IN OUR BUREAUCRATIC PLANNING AND ZONING DEPARTMENT WHEREBY ANY REQUEST BY A PROPERTY OWNER TO BE REMOVED FROM THE DISTRICT IS CONSIDERED TO BE A "ZONING" CHANGE AND THUS THEY MUST PAY AN APPLICATION FEE OF $1200. OF COURSE, SUCH REQUESTS ARE AUTOMATICALLY TURNED DOWN BY THE TC, THUS PROVIDING A NEW LAW SUIT AGAINST THE TOWN. MOREOVER, THE ZONING, NAMELY, RS-16, REMAINS THE SAME WHETHER OR NOT THE REQUEST IS GRANTED. WELL, I GUESS THE SUCKUP BUREAUCRATS WHO SERVE AT THE PLEASURE OF MAUD MUST KEEP HER HAPPY AND DO HER BIDDING NO MATTER HOW LONG THEIR NOSES BECOME.

Under the historic guidelines the Robinson property is Historic. Shouldn't we be hearing something about its preservation from Maud. Why isn't the Town Council bearing down on this case so that the property will not be lost to the bulldozer? Any friends of Maud who could enlighten us on this subject. It is important because if the site is designated Historic the Historic District could be extended for a quarter mile around the Courthouse Road location.