How to Fix Cedar Lane Area Problems

rezoned to what? i don't think I follow what you are suggesting.

the apartments are currently zoned multifamily--low density, which allows up to 3 story buildings. Zoning does not mandate ownership(rental apartment versus ownership condo) or price points. Would you propose upzoning to multifamily--high density? the town does not currently have such a designation, and I cannot imagine either the town council, or the public approving such a change.

A POSSIBLE SOLUTION TO THE LARGER PROBLEM OF REMOVAL OF SOME OR ALL OF THE TC INCUMBENTS IS MOVING ELECTION DAY FROM MAY TO NOVEMBER TO COINCIDE WITH OTHER COUNTY, STATE AND FEDERAL ELECTIONS.I BELIEVE A LARGER TURNOUT WOULD RESULT AND MAYBE PRODUCE NEW AND YOUNGER TC MEMBERS THAT ARE NOT AFRAID TO DISAGREE WITH MAUD THE FRAUD.

the apartments are currently zoned multifamily--low density, which allows up to 3 story buildings. Zoning does not mandate ownership(rental apartment versus ownership condo) or price points. Would you propose upzoning to multifamily--high density? the town does not currently have such a designation, and I cannot imagine either the town council, or the public approving such a change.

There is NO incentive to change anything now. The residents have a choice, leave as is or give the owner an incentive. One idea? Now it's three stories, make it five. In terms of what is there, ownership or rental, absolutely that can be influenced. Whether rezoning, proffers, or code changes, this can certainly be moved away from the current low end housing situation.

rezoned to what? i don't think I follow what you are suggesting.

The point is that it is not a police issue or the current owner's issue, it is the Vienna Town Council's issue, their zoning issue. Do you want those particular apartments there forever? For if those buildings don't get bull dozed, you will always have the same situation there. This is yet another debate about what does Vienna want to be: a run down place hanging on to development set in motion 60 years ago, or a vibrant community capable of raising the bar on it's housing stock. Nice condos, in a 5 story building, perhaps in the price point of 400K each would certainly change all of the issues around Cedar IMMEDIATELY. Or we can always sit around and debate the current flop house apartments for the next 20 years.

HV,
you propose alleviating "crowding" by replacing a 3 story building w/ 5 stories? do you really believe the neighborhood would want that? further, I doubt that an increase of 2 stories would be enough of an incentive to demolish the property and redevelop.

HV,
show me the pro forma for a 5 story building of $400k condos on that site that would justify a developer going ahead with such an endeavor.

show me the pro forma for a 5 story building of $400k condos on that site that would justify a developer going ahead with such an endeavor.

You miss the point. Are you saying we are stuck with the current situation forever? This is all a zoning matter, a political matter. It is a political/zoning solution. Do we want run down apartments built 50 years ago there for the future? This debate isn't about whether I have the price point right or the height right, it's about coming up with something different than we have. You already sound convinced nothing else works than what we have there. I am sorry, you are already defeated. Why did you not respond with another option or another idea? You are experienced in this field. Why just throw your hands up and point the gun back at me? I am opening the debate, and if Vienna wants to close the debate and pretend the real world doesn't exist, a typical Vienna response, then sit back and get ready for all kinds of more problems that will surely roll down the pike with the current flop housing there.

You have devoted much time in the past to ranting about how Maud is a racist because she allegedly opposes affordable housing. And now here you are, trying to figure out how to destroy the one significant piece of affordable housing in Vienna because you don't like the people that live there. Who's the racist now?

you propose alleviating "crowding" by replacing a 3 story building w/ 5 stories? do you really believe the neighborhood would want that? further, I doubt that an increase of 2 stories would be enough of an incentive to demolish the property and redevelop.

The current situation at Cedar Lane results from older, and in many cases, run down multiple family housing rental scenarios. I have no idea what the exact mix is that fixes it all, the price point and or building height, but the current situation will get worse if nothing is done.

You have devoted much time in the past to ranting about how Maud is a racist because she allegedly opposes affordable housing. And now here you are, trying to figure out how to destroy the one significant piece of affordable housing in Vienna because you don't like the people that live there. Who's the racist now?

Home ownership of newer homes will result in a different personal responsibility in that neighborhood. I could care less about the "race". If homeowners of newer homes are injected, not renters in run down apartments, the scene changes. And that new scene could very well be families of Hispanic descent - and that would be great. What this argument really appears to be for some is a defense of Vienna's one and only defacto public housing project. I say tear it down and do better.

There are not a lot of apartments around and the ones that are there could be made more attractive.

It sounds like zoning enforcement is the answer. So where are the zoning enforcers in all this? Who are they? Where are they?

The police quote is funny. So people are concerned about "changes in their neighborhood?" Yeah, overcrowding is a change in a neighborhood. So are gang members hanging out where they didn't used to be.

Owning a home is good, if we didn't have everyone able to get credit from someplace or other, whether they should get it or not. We just had someone get in trouble in our neighborhood because they have too many unrelated people living in their few year old, $1.3 million house. Everyone says they bought more than they could afford and rented out rooms to different people like it was a motel.

The quick-to-judgment (re: horrible idea) regarding rezoning sure smells of the common refrain whenever "change" (re: redevelopment) is suggested: you developers are just trying to make money. And, that is just bad.

wah-wah-wah

There are not a lot of apartments around and the ones that are there could be made more attractive. It sounds like zoning enforcement is the answer. So where are the zoning enforcers in all this? Who are they? Where are they?

Where are they? Here is one. Zoning enforcement is NOT the issue or the answer. Apartments in need of redevelopment is the issue and the answer. How are those apartments made more attractive? Is there ever a time when they get leveled? What is that path? When does it happen? Lock 15,000 bureaucrats in one town, 15 miles outside DC, and it is a surprise we stagnate? Not exactly.

Cedar Lane Shopping Center was purchased by First Washington Realty on Feb 2, 2007 for $13,766,000 (314111 sq feet or 7.21 acres)

http://www.firstwash.com/

Southern Management has 13.452 acres where the RM2 apartments stand.

since i usually take a pro-development stand on this site, i thought I'd stay away from the social issues, but here goes... what exactly ARE the problems here? true, there are some crime problems at the shopping center, but is the answer to demolish people's homes? do we want to be a community that throws anyone into the street who can't afford a $2mil home, just because they make us uncomfortable for some reason? Development costs aside, there are lots of reasons to maintain a diverse housing stock, even including some low-cost rental units.

HV, because I do have some background, I understand how difficult--sometimes even impossible--it can be to deal with issues of a declining neighborhood. but is this complex really declining, or does it just fail to meet the expectations of some critics? I believe there must be some way to address the actual problems here in a less drastic way than by kicking families out of their homes. And btw, in most jurisdictions, condo developers are responsible for helping former tenants to find new homes when their apartments are replaced with condos, further adding to the expense of redevelopment. This is not just a simple zoning problem.

This is not just a simple zoning problem.

But it is a zoning problem. Not zoning enforcement, but zoning.

I disagree. it's a zoning ENFORCEMENT problem, and I'm guessing that's what the police meant.

I disagree. it's a zoning ENFORCEMENT problem, and I'm guessing that's what the police meant.

These kinds of issues are not novel. They have been seen across the country. You can have as many zoning enforcement officers as you can hire, but if they are working in a run down, non-ownership apartment scene, you will always have what is going on now. Personal responsibility is the issue and government, if it does anything, should be fostering that. Hiring more zoning enforcement is absolutely a waste of time. Once again, where is the path for redevelopment of those apartments? Why is it accepted that in Vienna it is alright to have new homes, but not new condos? Why are we stuck with outdated apartments and condos in Vienna, with no redevelopment plan in sight? Do they only get redeveloped when they fall down? Does anyone have an answer to these thoughts beyond the feel good response of "zoning enforcement"?

HV,
Here's where I agree with you. There should be new condos and apartments built in Vienna. I also think that Vienna's zoning and master plan could use some updating, and that the town leaders are blind to such needs. But I just don't think it is the solution right here, and I'm still not sure what the problems are. Crowding, illegals, personal responsibility? to me this all sounds like picking on poor people.

Crowding, illegals, personal responsibility? to me this all sounds like picking on poor people.

What is the definition of "poor'? Is this a permanent state? I think that discussion is a side issue, a class warfare issue not relevant to solving real problems. As of right now, by their actions or inactions, the Vienna Town Council has legislated who lives there in those apartments. My point is that if enough residents want to change the scene, they can through the zoning/political process. But zoning enforcement is not a long term solution, economic development is.

SE/SW Vienna has always been blue collar, and those apartments have always had low income folks living there. It wasn't until Southern Management took over a few years ago that over crowding, parking, and crime became a huge issue.

The bigger picture is that the zoning problems have spilled over from the apartments and now affect single family housing in SE/SW. Anyone who says they haven't noticed the increasing number of "flop houses" filled with groups of people must either be blind or be a member of the Vienna Town Council.

We need a two pronged effort here: enforce current zoning, and create new zoning laws to address our problems at the apartments and throughout Vienna.

It wasn't until Southern Management took over a few years ago that over crowding, parking, and crime became a huge issue.

Good overall points, but I am guessing that the increased demand for Southern Management's apartments are related to wider immigration issues. In that sense, if there is an influx of new renters, much larger numbers, then it is not a surprise that Southern Management is looking to maximize their profits with the current apartments they own especially since they have no incentive to redevelop. Every bit of this problem lays at the doorstep of the Vienna Town Council. They have to lead, they have to set the tone. They can't just sit back and rely on a zoning code constructed 50 years ago when Vienna was a much different place. If everyone takes a real honest look at this whole thing it is all about economic ying and yang. The ying is to hold on and ignore the fact that Fairfax County is an economic powerhouse and the yang is the desire to bring housing stocks up to avoid having slums. If everyone else in Fairfax County is redeveloping, and Vienna is not, certain parts of Vienna will become slums. Another issue? Why not allow Yeonas built homes, currently saddled with 25% lot coverage, 30% lot coverage? That would also push economic development. Look everyone, the cat is out of the bag. We can all get out in front of these issues or we can hang on. Vienna as it was is gone. Time for a reality check.

After all the debate, don't forget Maud is in control and responsible. Continually electing an 85 year old nut will continually give moronic solutions. Does anyone really think it is even remotely responsible to have this person in charge? Is anyone going to make the case that she has the same faculties she did at 50? Apparently, like her husband, and her electors, they will die in office and in control with a bitter, angry smile on their face as we then spend the next 20 years fixing their messes.

Lax Rental Requirements and Rules Enforcement
From: tore_up_application
Date posted: 9/22/2007
Years at this apartment: 2007 - 2007

Dozens of day laborers live here. They aren't gainfully employed so they don't qualify for a lease. Instead they rent sleeping space from someone who already has a lease. You never know who your neighbors will be from one day to the next, or how many will be living in the apartment next door to you. Management doesn't know either and probably doesn't care as long as the rent is coming in.

Stay away
From: -Anonymous-
Date posted: 7/19/2007
Years at this apartment: 2001 - 2006

worst place where you can live,nigtmare,do NOT move there,PLEASE Roach,roach,roach,.....and more illegals !!!!!!!
look at the intersection Park st.and Cedar Lane those gonna be your neighborhood so watch out!!!!!They have a Rent-o-Cop security who all day standing front of the office!(specialy on the weekends).Thursday is the roach killing time full of fan.Watch out for your balcony they steeling your staff.End on the weekends heavy drinking going on look at the dumpsters monday morning corona etc.This is not safe area at all!!!!!The rent-o-cop are there but they Dont care!But if you dont have a parking permit Oooooo they care about that! And if anything will hapend next around here I will write here so just read more often.People throving out beer bottle from the balconies so be careful!!Unsupervised chidren running around with sticks,yelling,screaming,managment unresponsive at all!!Now is april an roaches are everyvhere in kitchen ,bathrom and in your badroom and crowling around you when you sleep.now is july-07,situation is the same roaches everywhere,place is a dump,they like to people move in with all kind of bull... but dont fool your self you can find better place like this,I recomend you to come and look aroun on the weekends drinking is going on ,the security is still dont doing his job(maybe hi is scared ).O I almost forget "cloth care center " where you will clean your stuff is nightmare some resident dont no how to use the machine machine,they put everithin in it!!! and the dryer is mess to.(broke always most of the time).

My Favorite Post:

If you look in the dictionary for the word "ghetto," Vienna Park Apartments would appear as the definition!
From: wvusmitty
Date posted: 11/1/2005
Years at this apartment: 2004 - 2005

Vienna Park Apartments are the worst place to live in northern Virginia. Although the location is in a nice area of Vienna, close to popular attractions such as Tyson's Corner and right off the beltway and I-66, don't be fooled!

While living their I experienced an infestation of roaches, spiders and illegal immigrants. As a single female, I felt very uncomfortable in this living situation. Not to mention gang signs spray painted in the laundry room. The maintenance services at Vienna Park are a joke. Although there is a 24 hour emergency maintenance line, it takes nearly two hours to get a response. While there I had experienced horrible plumming problems (which I will spare the details of human waste in my bathroom floor).

I could go on forever about the terrible experience I have had in the one year lease at this location. In conclusion, DO NOT put yourself in this situation. The whole property should be demolished!!

AND, there are many more opinions:

Source: http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate/VA-Vienna-Vienna-Park-Apartments.html

I'm curious to see how old Maud will be when she runs for re-election in 2009. Wonder what lie she will spread to the press next time. I'm betting on 79.

HV,
Again, I agree w/ you. If we had real leadership there could be dialogue about what the problems are, and how to solve them. With the current leadership, that will never happen.

Those apartment review site posts are sickening.

Again, I agree w/ you. If we had real leadership there could be dialogue about what the problems are, and how to solve them. With the current leadership, that will never happen.

I know, but aggressive steps are needed. We can all do better than waiting for old people to die as a means of changing policies.

This whole town needs a brain lift, or brain Transplant, if we are going to even remotely come close to solving the real problems this town needs solving, and not just a lot of back room dealing and sticking your head in the sand pretending that there are no bad problems in Vienna.

When will we see lower water prices? or a real effort to solve out traffic congestion? or sidewalk decay? or gang problems? or cut through traffic in our neighborhoods streets? or tax reduction?

Nothing but a never ending list of studies, and whose paying for these anyway?

Is the only reason to have a TC and puppet mayor to have a watering fountain with dead trees? I dare say, I could get more done in one month than these idiots have for the past 6 years. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to run for TC, but someone with brains should run that has no alignment with the present lot, because it is clear these morons are simply incapable in getting anything done for this Town.

I would love to see some younger, more qualified people run for TC that would bring new ideas to the table and a motivation to actually act on their direction, and not just sit on their butts and do nothing but say everything, like the present lot. For example: Have you are heard Edith Kelleher saying every election cycle that she's going to solve the water problem? Well, it's been years, and nothing has been done... Wake up Vienna and realize these people are all Maud's sheep, and Maud isn't fit to lead sheep or people.

Have any Town Council members ever stood up to Maud any of her posse?

I would like to see someone voted in that would, of course, take action and do everything they can to get done what they claim they will when they are elected, someone who will stand up against these crazy people, and someone who makes good use of our tax dollars!

Its annoying to see people who have the mental capacity of a rock run this town (or any town for that matter). Im sure everyone agrees that we could do so much better!

Why do these people keep getting re-elected?

I had actually asked my mom why she votes for who she votes for (regarding town and state elections) and she actually said because she doesnt know much about the candidates except they have a familiar name and have been around a long time (if only she knew!)

I think that (what my mom said) comes across worse than what it was, but in a way, I think that that could be what a lot of people in Vienna do/think. They arent familiar with who does what, and dont know what goes on behind closed (and open) doors, so they just keep electing the same people.

I could be wrong of course, I have no idea how many people attend the town meetings, and all that kind of stuff.

It just seems plausible considering that this town is a pretty busy place, and a lot of the people that live here may not take the time to get involved in the community THIS way. Or they could be completely in the dark about the goings on of the Town Council! (I sure was.)

Minerva, you are talking trhough your hat!

wyltn, in case you missed it, I also said this:

"I could be wrong of course, I have no idea how many people attend the town meetings, and all that kind of stuff."

So instead of claiming that I act like I know what Im talking, read through my posts carefully. Also read the word "Plausible" as stated above.

Then talk to me about talking through my hat.

Talking Through Your Hat

To be talking about a subject as if you know a lot about it when in fact you know very little.

Just the facts Ms. If you do not know find out and tell us about it. We don't need to learn what you don't know. BTW was it your mother that complained to Council that they would not let her vote in Vienna just because she lives across the street from the Vienna town line?

Vienna Mommy, I know what talking through your hat means, Im not mentally challenged.

wyltn, since you dont want to hear my OPINION or speculations, I dont want to hear yours either. I will remind you of this next time you post anything that is not the straight facts, and anything that involves your opinion or any opinion what so ever.

We live within town limits, thank you.

Was it you who drank all the kool-aid, wyltn? I believe there were some people from Town Council looking for some...

To get things cleaned up, you need to admit there's a problem.

According to one of the BS articles that the Town had placed in the press:

Town Administrator John Schoeberlein: "Southern Management are doing a wonderful job. ... They are very aggressive in making sure there's no overcrowding; they have always cooperated with us on that."

Felice Navidad

Its "Feliz" Wyltn. Practice what you preach and don't post something you don't know.

Minerva, there is Spanish and there is English. Google Felice Navidad and you will get 104,000 hits. Now if I had said "Fleece Navidad" I could see you having concern. On my Honor I will do my best.