Who Still Shops at Cedar Lane Shopping Center? Who Takes the Gamble?

If anyone has it...would like to see all Police reports posted online here for the last few years at or near the Cedar Lane shopping center.

Good luck with that.

Up until last July, the Town of Vienna didn't even comply with THE LAW that required reporting our crime stats to the VA state police.

Here's a link to all of the state police reports for 1999-2006:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Crime_in_Virginia.shtm

Over the last 9 years, Vienna has only fully complied with the law 2 times -- in 2000 and 2001. Vienna reported partial stats in 1999, 2002, 2004, and 2007. Vienna reported no crime stats to the state in 2003, 2005 and 2006.

According to the state police, Vienna only started reporting their stats when they were threatened with the loss of state funding. We will be able to see what they've sent to the state for July - December 2007, when the report is compiled in May.

What activity? The people loitering? Or the person videotaping the other people?

I'd be pissed off if I saw someone sitting in their car videotaping me and my friends while we were just hanging out somewhere. Put yourselves in these peoples' shoes.

The Vienna Citizen's Group pretty much wants everyone to participate in discrimination on the basis of race AKA racism.

Ask the Town of Vienna and Fairfax County to enforce already existing laws, and enact new zoning, employment, vagrancy, and business laws to prevent illegal aliens from taking advantage of us.

Notice the last part?

No one knows exactly what the residential status of these people are. And saying that because they stand around and work as day laborers makes them illegal is not fair.

Here is another excerpt from the site "We believe that the day laborers are illegal aliens."

Just to put it in perspective, that would be like me saying that I believe that the makers of the Vienna Citizens Group and most of its "members" are white. Is that fair for me to assume that? No.

There are plenty of kids who hang around the Noodles/Starbucks place - smoking (I can assure you, 75% of the kids out there smoking are not old enough), drug deals, and all sorts of shenanigans go on there but I dont see these people saying anything about that. Its all about the Hispanic people.

Also, vagrancy is not the same as loitering.

Here is the definition of Vagrancy: "the state of wandering from place to place; having no permanent home or means of livelihood."

Here is the definition for Loitering: "An intransitive verb meaning to stand idly, to stop numerous times, or to delay and procrastinate."

So to sum it up, vagrants are what we would call "bums" and loiterers are what we could call "people who hang around somewhere for longer than they have business to."

Am I saying crime is not committed there? No. Am I saying that these people should be here illegally? No.

What Im saying is leave the decent working people alone, bother the ones who are committing serious crimes.

If youre scared to go to the Cedar Park place, DONT GO. If you dont want to be around the hispanic people, DONT GO. Thats really all you have to do. Let business run how its supposed to. When customers are driven away by outside forces, they will either tolerate it and lose business, or they will enforce their own rules in order to gain business back.

Are my statements controversial? Maybe to you. Have compassion for people who work their ass off to provide for their families. Wouldnt you do the same thing if you were in their situation? Yeah!

Im not saying that Im joining the TC - as we all know, they suck at their jobs, blah blah blah. Getting rid of these people wont get rid of crime, flop houses, or loitering.

To me, its all just a big blame game.

Your video shows several people standing there. Just standing there. Looking for work. Staying out of trouble. What exactly is your problem with that? Maybe I'd understand if you were upset about their pay being under the table. However, as we're well aware, some fine, "upstanding" citizens of the United States have been caught not paying their taxes and not reporting income. Most of those men are in this country to make better lives for their children and families, just as our ancestors did when they came to America. Of course there are a few trouble makers that ruin it for the rest of them. There are in every culture. But it takes one bad apple to ruin the barrel. I'm embarrassed for anyone who thinks they're better than "these people".

Oh, and I do believe I saw a parent out of their car with a child. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Your video shows several people standing there. Just standing there. Looking for work. Staying out of trouble. What exactly is your problem with that?

People defending day laborers have passionate arguments, but the logic is a little faulty. First, it is not our video, it is from another website. Second, if the person shooting it had enough time and energy we are sure they would eventually catch crime on video there - it sure happens regularly. Third, if this behavior is so charming why do we only tolerate it at the off the radar shopping center? Why not have the Town of Vienna set up an organized day laborer facility so jobs and employers can be matched? And why not do either in the empty parking lot next to Maud or in front of the Giant? See, the that's the real issue here - hypocrisy. As long as this goes on in an area where it is low profile and only a relatively few people are put out with crime, loitering, etc. -- then it's fine. Put this all out in the open, put it on Vienna's main drag, and have it be organized by Vienna government. Let's all embrace it out in the open. Then let's see if a majority of Vienna really wants it.

I'm embarrassed for anyone who thinks they're better than "these people".

What does this mean exactly?

Ask the Town of Vienna and Fairfax County to enforce already existing laws, and enact new zoning, employment, vagrancy, and business laws to prevent illegal aliens from taking advantage of us. Notice the last part? No one knows exactly what the residential status of these people are. And saying that because they stand around and work as day laborers makes them illegal is not fair. Here is another excerpt from the site "We believe that the day laborers are illegal aliens." Just to put it in perspective, that would be like me saying that I believe that the makers of the Vienna Citizens Group and most of its "members" are white. Is that fair for me to assume that? No.

A response that takes the emotion out:

1. The recent busts by ICE at the Landsdown Resort is yet another reminder that there is a widespread illegal alien problem in Northern Virginia. Does that mean every Central American or Mexican is here illegally? No. But clearly the numbers, the percentages are enough to take notice. Ignoring the numbers is no better than saying everyone is illegal.

2. Clearly there is a larger Hispanic illegal alien population (mostly Central American and Mexican) in Vienna than over any other group. That is not debatable. Without having the exact statistics, it seems like most people know that there is not an illegal alien problem in Vienna involving Chinese, Russians, Western Europeans, etc. anywhere on the scale of those coming from Mexico and Central America. Naming where a particular group is coming from is not racism.

3. If anyone goes to a local hospital it is readily apparent, again, the groups of people dominating the hospital emergency rooms. That, and it is one small example of not paying taxes for services, is taking advantage of people who do pay taxes.

On the flip side, people working jobs that most Americans don't want or won't do, and doing those jobs with great skill and dedication, is a plus for America. There is a balance here we need to find, but in terms of Vienna, in terms of Cedar Lane Shopping Center, we have a problem.

Best solution? Vienna rezones that area to incentivize the owners to put more money into the shopping center and appartments. As of now Vienna government is letting an entire area become a flop house.

Minerva,
I invite you to live in the Vienna Park Apartments and shop exclusively at the Cedar Park Shopping center and tell us how wonderful it is.

So for all you bleeding hearts out there what do you think when they stop standing there and start breaking into your house and stealing your things, and putting your family at risk? Rules are made to be followed because they keep the population as a whole safer. Minerva go and have one of these guys come into your home and paint your house-most likely you will be fine, but are you willing to chance that at the same time it could be a gang member? The citizens group is only doing what Vienna won't, which is calling attention to a increasing problem. Stop reacting with feelings and start thinking logically.

I didn't here anyone on the video mention the day laborers race.

This is about undesireable behavior on the part of the day laborers, and the Town Council ignoring the impact of that behavior on the community.

Patrick St. Resident - I dont live in the low-income apartments because I can afford to live elsewhere, thank you. And for the Cedar Park place? When I was in 8th grade, my best friend and I used to walk up to CVS ALL THE TIME with no problems. Sure, we got some looks from the guys and it can be annoying, but as Ive said before, learn enough spanish to tell them to shut their mouths and they usually will. Especially if you are not hispanic.

Most of the illegal people around here are actually from El Salvador and Honduras. There really arent many actual Mexicans in our area.

As for you "reality check for vienna" it seems like you are the one whose in denial, or are in some sort of severe delusion. If they stop standing there, they arent going to come to your stupid house and take your crap. They are going to go stand elsewhere. You need to pull your head out of your butt.

I actually know that a few of those guys out there have OTHER jobs besides the day laboring. How do I know this? Ive worked with some of them. Anyways, if they are doing their job well, I wouldnt have a problem with them being there. If you treat them with respect and treat them well, they will do the same to you.

Even if it were some white person working on my house, Id want to stay home to watch my junk. For me, it has nothing to do with the race. As I said, if they do their job, good. If not, theyre fired. Its that simple.

Also, gang violence and activity generally revolves around other gangs and the alcohol scene.

So, for us with so called bleeding hearts, at least we have hearts. Thanks.

When the nice lady who works at a place of business at the Cedar Lane Shopping Center (I won't say which) tells me the guys hanging around in the evenings are just looking to rob people if they don't get jobs during the day, she says that just to scare white folks, eh?

FYI, she is Hispanic and tells people these guys are up to no good. How many assaults take place there? How many businesses there have been broken into? How often are the helicopters called out?

I REFUSE to make excuses for any illegal behavior up there. This does not mean I am anti-anything other than criminal activity. To say it's not going on, is just making excuses.

Grow up and accept there are BAD PEOPLE WHO DO BAD THINGS.

To answer the original question:

1) Yes, I still get out the car and shop there.
2) Yes, I take my two year old with me.

What's the big deal so long as they're just standing there?

Not in the last 30 years has this type of activity been tolerated? I've only lived here 11 years, but the day labor folks have been gathering there or across the street for pretty much the whole time... as I understand it, the shopping center parking lot is private property and they could tell them to move, but if they stand in the the sidewalk/right of way then they're on public property and nobody can force them not to stand there... hence why all the day labor people in Herndon where I work stand on the sidewalk all day.

I've lived in this part of Vienna for all of my life, and I can tell you for sure that it's never been this bad with day laborers loitering and other criminal activity.

The TC has been warned again and again that this is a bad situation. But I predict they will do nothing about it.

I hope anyone injured financially or physically sues the Town. I know that's what I plan to do if something happens to me or mine.

wah-wah-wah - what makes you think Im not grown up? Did I ever deny that crimes go on there? No!

Dont sit there and tell me that bad people do bad things -Im VERY aware of this. How? Hm. Lets count the reasons. I knew Taylor Behl who was murdered. I have friends who have been assaulted and brutalized in ways you would never imagine.

My father is a Federal Prosecutor for the Department of Justice. He works in Terrorism and Violent Crime. Do you think that my dad goes to work and comes home to tell stories of fairy dust and rainbows? Hell no.

So for me any my "bleeding heart" its not about being naive, its about knowing more than you people could ever imagine that someone my age could know.

I never defended the dangerous criminals. I never would. But someone needs to step up and give the people who really ARE just here to find work and live decently in the shadows a voice, so here I am. Fight it all you want but all you do is make yourself look bad.

Hey, everyone, I live at home with Mom & Dad. Maybe, I have a job at Friday's. Perhaps, I pretend to "attend" college at NoVa.

Who knows?! But, I do like to defend gang bangers and other losers in this town.

http://www.historicvienna.com/2008/01/vienna_man_found_guilty_of_rec.html

Minerva wannabe, you can add psychic to your list of skills, because you just read my mind!!!! :-D

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Minerva if this is true that "Most of the illegal people around here are actually from El Salvador", than that is even more frightening to me. El Salvadorians make up MS13. Look up gang actively in Northern VA. Go to the website and read and then we can have a debate. I have actually worked with gang members. This is a serious issue for the United States as a whole, not just Vienna. All things start at home though, and this needs to be addressed by politicians who do not keep their heads in the sand.
"Patrick St. Resident - I dont live in the low-income apartments because I can afford to live elsewhere, thank you." That was a bit judgmental for someone with such a big heart. Do you have your own place? In reality the crimes don't stop at the apartments. There is no dome that keeps bad things from just happening in one area.

I am sick and tired of you liberal white people easing your consciences by rushing to defend the "hard-working hispanics who do jobs that no other American will do."

You gotta be kidding me. These criminals come here illegally, work under the table for less than minimum wage and no benefits, and steal social services and healthcare.

The reason you are defending hispanic illegal aliens is because they are your new slaves.

Think about THAT while you watch Jose cut your grass or Graciela change your baby's diaper.

No, I dont live with my parents. I moved out a while ago. I do have my own place. No, I dont work as a waitress. I do not go to NOVA.

So here are some tid-bits dedicated to all you fools who think Im exaggerating myself.

A)Im married.

B)I have my own place in Virginia Beach

C)I am in the process of a BS in Global Security and Intelligence Studies taking classes at Norfolk Naval Base from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University

D)I pay my own rent, bills, car payments,utilities, etc.

E)My husband and I are BOTH Hispanic. He came here LEGALLY but is not yet a citizen.

F)Husband was wounded in Kuwait at age 18. 82nd Airborne Army Ranger, 3rd BTN, 75th Regiment.

And no, its not judgmental of me to say that I can afford to live elsewhere. How they earn and spend their money is none of my business, and its none of yours either.

By the way, to whoever is mocking me, grow some balls. I have the balls to put info up here as is, not go anonymous, or even go under mocking names like
"Patrick St Resident lives om the street where all the 'flop houses' are, so my house is one!"
or "Reality Check For Vienna - I have a mental health record" or "wah-wah-wah I dont have enough balls to put up an actual name"

So spare me, dont tell me to grow up when none of you have the mental capacity to defend anything but your own ass.

Talk about lies.

I know exactly who you are "Minerva" and if you think about it, you know exactly who I am.

Whoa. No comment.

I have a boyfriend in the military, and he is MY OWN AGE.

Seriously, I dont have "all the knowledge" about what goeson in this town, which is why I like reading this website.

If you go back to one of my first posts, you will see that I had NO IDEA about any of the town council's crap going on.

And I dont work for the police, I said already, I walk dogs. I work for a company that walks dogs. Im NOT enrolled in college at the moment because I dont know what Id like to pursue in life yet.

Posted by: Minerva | November 25, 2007 08:55 PM

Our little girl explorer has suddenly gotten very grown up and bold. Minterva you did not have to give so much information to leak your identity. I had it figured out long time ago. A recent post simply verified my suspicion. Regarding balls: "Balls said the king not because he wanted to but because he had to. Ball said the Queen: Not because she had to but because she wanted to".

Minerva,
I'm glad to have your comments on this site. You add a great deal of info and understanding.

Reminder- that was 5 months ago! Husband and I got married in JANUARY! Got our place here in Virginia Beach last month. If you'd like, you can check on CLEP classes - you know, where you can test out of certain ones? Oh thats right, you probably werent able to since you arent that smart. So heres something to chew on, a 20 year old is like 20 times smarter than you! And it seems like I apparently have more wisdom (hence the name!).

Anyways, I dont have to defend myself here. I know who I am, I know Im not lying. If you'd like to waste your energy to hate on me because you feel inferior, thats you're problem.

Patrick St Resident, I have no idea who you are, and I really dont care. Go ahead, take a shot at who I am. Post "my" name on here if you're so sure. Prove to me that you know as much as you claim to. You seem to think Im full of shit, but hey- I feel the same way about you.

I know one person who lives on Patrick St and he's my age. Do you live in a flop house? Last time I drove down that street, I didnt see anything that looked so wonderful. Why dont you do something about it? You know you have no control over everyone elses property, but what about yours? Why dont you go ahead and build an obnoxiously large home fit for 20 when you probably live by yourself (for obvious reasons)?

As for you "Balls", get some, then talk to me. You are probably one of the morons who has concocted some stupid conspiracy thinking that I work for the TC. FYI, I have better things to do than participate in any sort of conspiracies.

Anne Smith - Im glad to see that there are people on this website who appreciate views other than their own even if they dont agree. I like your open-mindedness.

I hope that the person who took the video for VCG takes another of all the companies who pick them up.

This is the one thread where some over the top stuff is being allowed -- because it says something about the argument. But it does seem like both sides could make better arguments without the emotion.

This is the one thread that has been held hostage by a 20 year old: notice how the debate has been reduced to cursing and bizarre rantings?

As for the name "Minerva," one person takes Latin 1 in HS, and suddenly they are a scholar. Spare me.

I think that Minerva succeeded in what she set out to do: take the focus off the issue.

SO here's the issue again:

we have a problem with day laborers hanging out at the Cedar Park Shopping Center. The Town Council knows about it, yet does nothing. What is our next step to get the situation squared away?

Minerva, I think your comments are well-articulated. I still shop at Cedar Lane (CVS when I'm going that direction), and I bring my kids. I've never felt like my kids or I was threatened.

I think the solution is probably a day-laborer center, like the one that made people go psychotic in Herndon. I would hate to see Vienna turn into another Prince William County, running people out on the basis of race OR, yes, immigration status.

Sadly, I just learned that a child was hit by a car at the shopping center today, in front of Mike's Warehouse.

Next step, vote all the morons OUT OF THEIR SEATS.

Does anyone run against these people?

I am glad someone feels safe at Cedar Lane shopping center - I am sure the businesses appreciate customers. I do not feel safe there with my children in any way, shape or form. I will run in to pick up Chinese (the best in town) at Hunan Delight but I will no longer bring my children. It's just not worth it.

What are you afraid of? You're afraid to go to that CVS during the day? Lots of other moms I know go to that nail place with their little girls, and several of my friends get their kids' hair cut at that salon. I wonder if this issue is just getting blown way out of proportion. Yes, there is some crime in Vienna. But if you want to live somewhere without any crime, you'd basically have to move to 100 acres in northern Montana all by yourself. The good parts of living near other people (cultural activities, schools, diversity, lots of services) also come with negatives. Where can you have all the good and zero crime? Because it's crime we're talking about, right, not Latino people in general?

Because it's crime we're talking about, right, not Latino people in general?

The only group advocating racial profiling is the Seeman family.

Read.

Read.

Isn't it a simple fact, that if there is shopping center with numerous stabbings and assaults, you just stay away? I don't need to be a social experiment.

Diversity is great but define for me what it means to you and are all kinds of diversity created equal? Is diversity good when kids can hang out on a street corner with possible stabbers? Or, is diversity better when my child has a friend from Korea and learns Spanish from their mom's South American friend? I will pick and choose the "diverse" activities suitable for my children.

On March 10, 2008 at 8:30am, there was yet another stabbing at the Cedar Park Shopping Center.

The victim was stabbed in the chest, and taken to a hospital. The police chased the assailant for 2 miles until they found him. He ditched his knife somewhere on Patrick St., and it took the police hours to find it. Schools were on lock down until they found the guy. Police said that both men were Hispanic day laborers.

According to the Vienna TC, it's no big deal because it's "only Hispanic on Hispanic crime."

"Anothermomof3" I'm sure you agree with your mother and brother on this one.

Sorry another mother of 3, I should have said "anothermomof3"

8:30am?!?! That is right about the time, moms can be showing up for a fun-filled day of nails and hair cutting with their little girls. Awesome.

No one has a right to make their kid suffer seeing something like this happen. I feel strongly these children should be protected by their parents. There is absolutely no reason to shop there.

Does anyone know if the child hit by the car on Saturday lived?

If Cedar Lane were as threatening to the larger community as it is to a few people on this blog, obviously all of the businesses would close. I don't think most people in the community feel this way. Of course no one wants to make their kids suffer, myself fully included! But it's a great nail place, and when I go there occasionally, it's full of caucasian women getting manicures, who don't seem very terrified.

I know I'll be flamed for this, but c'mon - this isn't downtown Baghdad. It's not even downtown D.C. Truly, if you're this afraid, move to - where, though? Harpter's Ferry? Upstate NY? Wisconsin? And in the meantime, vote, and run for TC.

You know, I'm getting sick and tired of people saying "it's not that bad."

So what has to happen for it to be bad enough for you and those numbskulls on the TC to pay attention?

And in the meantime, vote, and run for TC.

I seem to remember both Blair Jenkins, Deborah Brehony and Susie Stich running for town council for 2 years in a row. Let's have a refresher about the last time a person who wasn't an incumbent winning a seat on the TC.

As far as the businesses there, ask how Mike's liked getting robbed or why Hunan Delight's business was listed for sale last year.

"Let's have a refresher about the last time a person who wasn't an incumbent winning a seat on the TC."

I keep telling myself I'm not going to keep going on this thread, but what the heck. The answer to the incumbent issue is to give up? Complaining on a blog isn't going to do it, although it might be a good forum to gin up interest in an election and maybe support for another candidate. We're VOTERS. We have a choice. This is a democracy, and I agree, the Town apparatus s*cks. It's not impossible to change it.

It's not impossible to change it.

True, but the issue is complicated.

1. Maud has, along with her now deceased husband, controlled Vienna's power lever for 50 years. 50 years.

2. Maud has a machine. To defeat her you either need a galvanizing issue or money.

3. Defeating machines is not very easy. Chicago and Daley family goes back how far? Just saying "democracy" and people are "apathetic" is not the whole story.

4. Most people in Vienna do not know there are even issues. The people who vote in a block, the crowd who grew up with Maud, the crowd that is over 80, know the system and know how to keep power. They are organized former federal government employees who groove off of their "control". They are in no way like the current residents of Vienna in their 30s, 40s, and 50s and never were. Problem? Younger people today are hindered from even knowing there are issues by a machine government that controls messaging, plus let's face it the average family really doesn't have time to analyze complex zoning issues...in the face of a government that works very hard to never allow a controversial issue "out" that could galvanize voters to the polls.

Best solution? Change Vienna election to the normal fall election which will increase turnout and marginalize the 500 old people who vote the same retreads in year after year.

This website is less about complaining, and more about information and exposure. In the long run sites like this are the only thing the machine fears.

I noticed a home sale in last week's Post. The price looked low so I checked the sales history on the County website. Here it is:

01/28/2008 $392,000

09/18/2007 $442,694

10/10/2006 $522,000

There has been a 25% drop in 15 months. The market is down and this may have been a foreclosure, but it is still a big drop. The house in question is on James Dr. SE, just two blocks from Patrick St.

Thankfully anothermomof3 is here, Im not the only one who feels the way I do.

When things get bad enough, people move. Patrick St Resident, why havent you moved? I know there are investments made and blah blah blah, but really - if things are THAT BAD, you would have moved by now. As much as you (and whoever else) wish you could change everyone elses behavior, you cant. That is the reality of it.

You CAN bring the issues discussed on here to light elsewhere (besides on this board) and see how other people feel about it.

Im pretty sure I wrote this before, but I had asked my mom who she voted for and why, and it was the same people who have been in power forever because its a familiar name.

Honestly, I dont think a lot of people take the time to sit down and think about what causes problems we have in Vienna.

Before I came to this board, I dint care about the TC. All I knew was that Vienna sucked because theres too much traffic, not enough of this, too much of that, etc etc. I didnt really ever think to pin it on TC because I didnt care.

Obviously, things have changed. Ive said before that Im glad to have stumbled upon this website. Yes, its really irritating when people come and accuse me of lying, fabricating, or even sleeping with COPS (yeah, I remember that one...) but I will not step down and cower away from what I believe in, and I dont expect anyone else to do the same.

So, instead of bickering back and forth all the time, throw out some ideas of how we can put together something that will help things turn around.

Minerva: I thought you moved to VA Beach with your "husband". So what are the problems "we have in Vienna"? Those of us that live here (like I'm betting you still do) are well aware of the problems. And who's responsible for them. Like a Mayor and TC members who run unopposed. I'd like to see a "None of the Above" option of town ballots. Now, I'm not accusing you of lying. But you need to get your stories straight. If you live in VA Beach, how are you going to "put together something that will help things turn around"? Is that here in Vienna, or in VA Beach? On 3-25, you referred to "here" like you were in Vienna, only to post two weeks later that you lived in VA Beach. Not that I really care, but which is it?

When things get bad enough, people move. Patrick St Resident, why havent you moved?

Cowards move. Some people stay and fight to make things better. No one should be forced to leave a home where they may have raised children and built a life.

If neighbors want to rise up and fight back against illegal behavior, more power to them! We do have laws in this country that I generally expect people to abide by on a daily basis.

Kudos to the residents of SW Vienna who have said enough is enough. One stabbing is too many. This is NOT normal behavior and it should never be tolerated. When we sit back and go "OK, you win. We'll leave," will be a very sad day.

We've lived in Vienna for many decades. Our children grew up here, our parents grew old here, and so have we.

Why should we have to leave our dear home because a criminal element moved down the street? The TC should be responsive to the needs of its tax-paying citizens. We pay a premium to live in Vienna. Why shouldn't we call them to task when they fall down, way down, on the job.

Minerva, your heart bleeds for day laborers. Yet you conveniently diminish the negative impact they have on our part of Vienna. It's people like you who make it easy for the TC to ignore it, too.

Now that Minerva moved to Virginia Beach I wonder who is writing her copy.

I am in Virginia Beach. Husband got stationed here in Norfolk aboard the USS Laboon. And dont come attacking me because I mentioned his Army record - when he was wounded, he was discharged from the Army and after 3 years of healing, MRI's, and waivers, he's back- just in a different service. So before calling me a liar in your response, just ask me whatever question you have if you doubt me. Ill be more than happy to answer.

Anyway, the reason I keep coming back to this board is because I do care about Vienna now. I was raised there too - since age 3.

"we" refers to everyone on this board who disagrees with how things are run in Vienna. Just because I moved away doesnt mean I dont care. I'd love to see everyone step up and get rid of these people. Vienna is obviously overdue for a TC makeover.

Kudos to the residents of SW Vienna who have said enough is enough.

Agreed. As I mentioned in my last post, throw some ideas out there. Obviously whatever we/you/whatever are doing now doesnt get the attention of the TC. So we obviously need to change our tactics.

Dont forget - this is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people (just on a smaller scale I guess). The downside to that applying to this situation is that people keep voting for these people!

Im too lazy to go back and check who that cylindrical man is that was holding scotch (or some sort of alcoholic beverage) that assaulted your camera. But anyways, try to get Mayor Moron when this fool isnt around. She'll probably have a heart attack when the fact is brought to her wrinkly, red lipped face that she has spent the last 50 years sweeping things under the rug and flushing the town down the toilet.

So - again, post your ideas on this board. With enough ideas, some tweaking, constructive criticism, and outside input, Im sure we can think of something.

The real issue is THE LAZER SHOW people!

Working men of all countries, unite!